Students sometimes enjoy cuddling, but innocent acts can sometimes lead to serious Title IX cases. These situations are more common than you might expect. Join Susan and Kristina in this episode of Real Talk as they discuss common pitfalls, focusing on important aspects like communication, conversation, and consent. Tune in for essential insights, and be sure to share this information with your students.

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

https://studentdefense.kjk.com/

TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone:

Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

Susan Stone:

Nice to see you on this dreary, rainy day.

Kristina Supler:

Indeed, it is.

Susan Stone:

It is. Well, we're going to talk about something that's actually good to do on a rainy day.

Kristina Supler:

Ooh, tell me more. What could that be?

Susan Stone:

Cuddling.

Kristina Supler:

Who doesn't love cuddling?

Susan Stone:

My gosh. You know what? I'm mourning the fact that my youngest is about to go to college.

And we talked about this on prior podcasts, but do you remember we used to have younger kids. But back in the day.

Kristina Supler:

My kids love to CUDDLE Yeah,

Susan Stone:

There's nothing like that. Cuddling up a little kid, especially on a rainy morning.

Susan Stone:

Couldn't agree more.

Susan Stone:

I love it.

Kristina Supler:

Well, why are you talking about cuddling today, Susan? Do I go with this?

Susan Stone:

Well, we're going to get there because, as you know, nobody sees us and things until something goes wrong. And what is that saying? Everything's fine till somebody gets poked in the eye. Do you remember that thing?

Kristina Supler:

Yes.

Susan Stone:

Well, we're going to talk about cuddling going wrong. But first, let's just talk about why do we cuddle? I mean, I was doing a little research on cuddling and did you know that cuddling produces oxytocin and basically makes you feel good and safe?

Kristina Supler:

Well, that's interesting because I suppose and you know, you're the special ed wiz, if you will, is it could one argue that cuddling is kind of like a form of O.T. in a way, occupational therapy or stimulating you in some way?

Susan Stone:

Well, we know it improves sleep. There are some studies out there that says it actually boosts the immune system and it, believe it or not, lowers blood pressure.

That's crazy, isn't it?

Kristina Supler:

Now that I didn't see that one coming, I'm just thinking about like some of our little kids and people with sensitivities to touch and touch can be a good thing. And also maybe something that can be triggering.

Susan Stone:

Yeah, exactly. Well, I would say that in early childhood, cuddling definitely leads to attachment parenting. You really form bonds.

Kristina Supler:

Well, that like when you first have your baby and they want to put the baby on your chest for the. What does that kangaroo care? What was it called?

Susan Stone:

I think it's kangaroo care. It's been a minute

Kristina Supler:

and they have had a baby.

Susan Stone:

Yeah, but I think your point is well taken that some children actually are averse to touch, you know, like that feeling. But most people do. And a little simple hug or cuddle is wonderful for parents. And I'm a big fan of parents being physically affectionate with children. But.

Kristina Supler:

but there's always a but

Susan Stone:

but we're not here to talk about parents snuggling their babies,

Kristina Supler:

I think as part of our podcast. It's funny, every episode there's sort of a theme of, in reality, things that are nice. Most of the time innocent sure and then put them on a college campus and the title nine world. And of course, there's always room for things to go wrong. So are we talking about cuddling in the context of Title Nine today?

Susan Stone:

We are. Because one person's innocent, platonic, asexual cuddling can be another person's prelude to a hookup.

Kristina Supler:

Indeed, indeed. And that actually makes me think we've had over the years we've had quite a few cases that are sort of rooted in, I don't know, cuddling going wrong, if you will, though I think it probably depends on who you ask. Right?

Susan Stone:

Well, I just learned that there is a definitional difference between cuddling and snuggling.

Kristina Supler:

Now this is totally new to me.Tell me more. I'm very interested.

Susan Stone:

Okay. I read by Rabbi Google. You know, the go to source of all things.

Kristina Supler:

When you're done, I'm going to tell you something that I just came across on Rabbi Google.

Susan Stone:

Okay, good. So cuddling his arms around someone and snuggling is rubbing up and wiggling against a person.

Kristina Supler:

Okay, that makes sense.

Susan Stone:

It does?

Kristina Supler:

Yeah.

Susan Stone:

How do you think it makes sense? Supler

Kristina Supler:

Because snuggling. It makes me think about, like, getting cozy and, like, under a blanket. And you're sort of, I don't know, inching up and just, like, being warm. And as I'm saying this, I'm realizing I don't even I don't know, it just makes sense to me that one's different.

Susan Stone:

Well, so maybe we're not here really to talk about cuddling. Maybe we're here to talk about snuggling when that goes wrong,

Kristina Supler:

Perhaps. But you reminded me, actually, not too long ago, I saw this headline about how in Manhattan, because of course, you can find anything in Manhattan, there are actually

Susan Stone:

I love the Big Apple

Kristina Supler:

professional cuddling services where people charge $150 an hour to cuddle in a platonic way because people are seeking out like that touch therapy thing.

Which made me think of the OT question I asked you earlier. How about that though? Truly, anything you want can be found in New York.

Susan Stone:

It can be. But let's go back. And that's interesting. It may be kind of creepy. I don't know how I feel about it, but let's go back to college, because in college there are people who like to have what they call cuddle buddies.

Kristina Supler:

Sure. And I think that from the perspective of Title nine, how can things go wrong? I mean, it's really in essence, any sort of touching or physical contact, if it's unwelcome, could perhaps give rise to a claim for sexual harassment.

Susan Stone:

So let's set the stage for our listeners. It's late. You've already gone out. The bars have closed.So it's what, 2 a.m.

Kristina Supler:

sure. I guess it depends what state you're in, but I think two AMs a reasonable time.

Susan Stone:

Okay. And you know, nothing good happens at 2 a.m..

Kristina Supler:

Nothing.

Susan Stone:

Nothing. So it's 2 a.m. and you decide to watch a little Netflix and chill for your evening out. Maybe you've had a beer or two or ten and you decide to cuddle and accidentally you might even fall asleep and or not. And the cuddling to one person, they're tired. They want to go to sleep, but to the other person they get aroused, duu duu dun

Kristina Supler:

Sure. I mean, I think one could argue that that is a natural consequence of cuddling

Susan Stone:

and a hand might wander.

Kristina Supler:

It's possible,

Susan Stone:

and a hand might wander without consent.

Kristina Supler:

Indeed.

Susan Stone:

And there's your title nine.

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. I mean, the whole at the heart of the Title nine analysis was the issue of unwelcomeness. And then also, you know, a conversation. It makes me think Conversations we often have with our students of any age is sort of impact versus intent, you know? But I didn't mean for anything, you know, to be upsetting or offensive, but it was received that way by someone else. And so what do you do with that? And that's really, in essence, what all of our Title nine cases are about, cause I don't think anyone ever says, I intentionally did X, Y, Z to hurt someone. It's always I didn't mean to or something was misunderstood or misconstrued. And then you have the, you know, the consequences of whatever the circumstance was.

And that's often what we're navigating through is sort of the the gray.

Susan Stone:

Well, because the definition of content send can be words or actions. And so what is an action? I thought we were cuddling. I thought we were getting closer. I thought you also were romantically interested in me. And so I thought it was a natural move on my part to move my hand.

And the other person's thinking, wait, you didn't even talk to me? But that's not the definition of consent. It's words or actions. And I think that's where the confusion comes from.

Kristina Supler:

Well, and I'm going to say this, that, you know, sort of a prevailing viewpoint might be that, well, come on, please. Everyone knows that cuddling is just sort of a gateway to a hookup.

How would you respond to that?

Susan Stone:

I don't even think that's true because as we started our whole podcast, parents cuddle children, but as we have worked our way through this issue, I think the confusion comes from the difference between cuddling and snuggling. And I think that college students don't spend enough time as they're creating these cuddle buddies to determine, is it truly platonic?

How do you know that you might feel platonic, and the other person might actually have feelings, and the cuddling or snuggling enhances those feelings.

Kristina Supler:

So, I hear you. But then I guess let me ask you this. It sorts of circles back to what I very in artfully tried to define before the difference between cuddling and snuggling. If you're snuggling.How would you define the two? Because if you're saying one is more, it sounds like you're saying one is okay and one can be problematic. I mean, you try to define the difference.

Susan Stone:

Well, I like the definition I gave you. And first of all, both are okay as long as everybody's on the same page.

Kristina Supler:

Right. Consent.

Susan Stone:

Consent. It always comes down to consent. I don't think that snuggling is appropriate without conversation.

Kristina Supler:

Yeah,

Susan Stone:

and it's certainly not appropriate. And many, many contexts. It is, to me, a boundary violation to rub your body against someone without a conversation.

Kristina Supler:

Agree. Agree. There needs to be a conversation. And you know, that makes me think as well that, you know, certainly, as you've pointed out correctly, most school policies indicates consent and again in Title nine world requires it can be given through words or actions.

But I think, you know, from a let's put a lawyer head on from a best practices perspective, we really do encourage all of our students. And when we talk, we sort of make the point that the safest way forward is to have a clear, explicit conversation. Are you okay if we, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is, to just have a clear understanding of what the boundary is, what a person is okay with, and perhaps not okay with.

Susan Stone:

Let's get a little embarrassing here, can we?

Kristina Supler:

Sure.

Susan Stone:

Sometimes the body does what the body wants to do, even if your mind says something different.

Kristina Supler:

You talk about involuntary

Susan Stone:

erections.

Kristina Supler:

Sure.

Susan Stone:

Okay. Now I do not have a penis. I am a female. You know. The penis is going to do what the penis wants to do. Supler.

Kristina Supler:

Tell me more.Where are we going with this?

Susan Stone:

I can envision a scenario where there is cuddling or snuggling and a male gets a hard on. It can happen easily.

Kristina Supler:

It could happen.

Susan Stone:

And that's really embarrassing. What? What should the guy do? I feel like I'm Howard Stern talking about this. Really? Well, what should happen?

Kristina Supler:

I mean, it can be embarrassing for the male.It could be whoever is the other person participating in the

Susan Stone:

male or female

Kristina Supler:

Male or female. It can make that person. They might like it, but also can make them feel really, really uncomfortable. And then what? What do you do?

Susan Stone:

I don't know. Should they get. Should the person with the erection just get out of bed and go into the bathroom? I don't know.

Kristina Supler:

I don't know either. And I feel like really delve into this topic. We need the male perspective because we're both females, but.

Susan Stone:

Well, no, I. I'm married. Married? We get this.

Kristina Supler:

Yeah,

Susan Stone:

we both have raised sons.

Kristina Supler:

So, the question is

Susan Stone:

not that I've talked about this with my son. Everyone out there, I want to clarify.

I have never discussed this topic with my child.

Kristina Supler:

So, the question is, could that be a title nine violation?

Susan Stone:

Yeah, it could be in today's crazy world. But how unfair is that?

Kristina Supler:

I totally agree. I totally agree. And I think that, you know, it sort of gets back to this issue of the importance of students having

Susan Stone:

self-awareness,

Kristina Supler:

self-awareness, but also the ability to and we talk about this all the time, the ability to have difficult conversations is like, this is awkward. This would be totally awkward to talk about with someone you don't even really know that well, but like, Hey, I don't like that I'm going to go. Or I mean, because I think the worst way to handle it is everyone's awkward and uncomfortable and there's no conversation. And then for days, the interaction is being dissected and analyzed and then outside voices sort of filter, and the narrative gets rewritten about what happens.

Susan Stone:

I'm going to challenge you on something,

Kristina Supler:

okay? Please do.

Susan Stone:

You're a big fan. As am I, on conversation.

Kristina Supler:

I am. I'm a talker. You're a talker.

Susan Stone:

But you know what? Some things you need a little self-awareness. I don't think. And everyone, I would love for you to respond. Send us your comments. I want to know what you think out there.

But if you're really into someone and you secretly like them, can you platonically cuddle? I put that out there. I say, No,

Kristina Supler:

I don't think you can either. That's actually I agree. I don't think you can. I think it's inevitable where where it's going to end up. But are you. So let me ask you.

Susan Stone:

So cuddle Without talking to the person and saying, hey, maybe this is where the conversation comes in.I don't think I can do that. I don't think I can get in bed with you in. And let's face it, how big are college beds?

Kristina Supler:

I mean, there aren't, like, extra long singles twins, right? Yeah. I remember going to bed with me and. And buying extra long sheets because, like, that's what you needed for some reason.

Susan Stone:

Yeah. You still need those extra-long sheets. But what I'm saying is I don't see how someone can platonically Cuddle. And if you're male, not get erect. Or how about this? A woman? We females get aroused too.

Kristina Supler:

I've been told

Susan Stone:

I've been told. I heard from a friend. You know, that's not a natural place to put yourself if you want to remain platonic.So I say a little self-awareness goes a long way.

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think also, though, there's you.

Susan Stone:

What do you mean? You don't know. That's ridiculous. You do know if you like, someone don't hop in the old bed with them without thinking that, you know, the juices are going to flow.

Kristina Supler:

How about this? Cuddle or no cuddle? You're alone with someone at 2:00 in the morning watching TV. Like, come on. I mean, I think that, too. It could sort of be a situation where if we're really talking about self-awareness, I don't think it's limited to cuddling. I think it should be, you know, sort of broad into just being mindful of the situations in which we find ourselves. Can you if you have a crush on someone and you just want to watch, I don't know, a show together on Netflix at 2:00 in the morning, You know, one could argue that that's sort of also a recipe to test limits and see where things go.

Susan Stone:

Drunk or not drunk?

Kristina Supler:

Well, let's say both. Right. Because, I mean, either way, alcohol, we've had plenty of cases that are, you know, cuddling, touching, gone wrong with no alcohol involved. I mean, it's not let's face it, alcohol is involved in many, if not most of our cases, but certainly not all. Certainly not all.

Susan Stone:

You know what else could happen? As I'm thinking about this, you could be thinking that you really are just friends. But sometimes you awake the dragon.

Kristina Supler:

I mean, I just

Susan Stone:

Feelings happen.

Kristina Supler:

Feelings do happen. But there's a difference between feelings happening. And then, like, I don't know, I just struggle with the idea of and maybe I'm being to I don't know, traditional in my views, but like platonic cuddling between a male and a female at 2:00 in the morning, I don't know that it's possible.I really don't.

Susan Stone:

Yeah, I'm with you. And I also wonder about those New York Cutlers. Do they really just cuddle?

Kristina Supler:

Well, I mean, according to the news article, yes, but I mean, I'm with you and that I'm very circumspect. And then he also does wonder about germs and whatnot. But supposedly there's like good sanitation measures in places.

Susan Stone:

We're getting so far off my gosh, I'm embarrassed for ourselves. But look, there is a lot of health benefits to cuddling and you can feel lonely in college and there's nothing wrong when the terms are clear. Yes, I will follow Suplers ideas, conversations, key. It can be a really nice way of connecting, forging bonds, getting good sleep, lowering your blood pressure and boosting your immunity. As long as everybody stays on the same page. I just worry for those little accidental erections and things that might go bump in the night accidentally.

Kristina Supler:

Accidental erections. Okay, well, hopefully we've given our listeners some food for thought today. This is just sort of a fun and lighthearted discussion. But I mean, in all seriousness, we do see plenty of matters that, you know, involve components of cuddling and miscommunication.

Susan Stone:

Yeah, and it's not funny when you have a Title nine case. It's embarrassing. our clients who come into our office or we zoom in with their mortified. It's awful. It's just awful.

Kristina Supler:

It's awful for everyone involved and

Susan Stone:

Also awful for the recipient. Who thinks that way.

Kristina Supler:

I was going to say it's awful as well for the person who maybe dozed off and then they wake up and are like, Whoa, what's going on?

So, you know, I mean, again, I think that, you know,

Susan Stone:

No one wins

Kristina Supler:

No One wins

Susan Stone:

Or everyone wins, depending on what happens. Right.

Kristina Supler:

Well, should colleges really be in the mix of passing through these scenarios? I'm not sure about that one. But under the regs, under the current title nine regulations are policies. They are. And so it is an issue that Title nine offices across the country are navigating.And so, you know, bottom line, parents out there, listeners, these two are topics to, you know, put on your students radar.

Susan Stone:

Talk about cuddling versus snuggling. Stay connected if you would like. We'd love to hear from you and see what you think. And let's keep the conversation going.

Kristina Supler:

Until next time.

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle @stonesupler and for more resources, visit us online at https://studentdefense.kjk.com/

Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.