A long marriage is often called a "long conversation." Filmmaker and painter Ben Stamper and I have been married for over 20 years, and in that time, it's been an ongoing conversation on our two divergent (and sometimes harmonious) trainings, viewpoints and approaches to being working artists. We decided to let you in on a tiny fraction of that conversation as we talk about the subject of Abstraction: what does it mean, how do different genres see it, and how an a gallery-oriented artist and a commercial artist—often seen as being at existential odds—find common ground?

You can see Ben's beautiful work at benstamperartist.com and helix.film.

**PATRONS can access the full, 1-hour interview by joining at https://patreon.com/vesperisms!**

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Vesperisms: The Art of Thinking for Yourself is the podcast to help you make sense of your place in this crazy world by reclaiming an artistic worldview. Everything around us is trying to push us into boxes, but that's not how artists' minds work. Let's get off that detour and back on the main road to thinking for ourselves: as artists.

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My newest book, A Cloud of Outrageous Blue, can be found at any bookseller—I recommend your local indie bookstore, who would love your support right now.

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Follow me on Instagram @vesperillustration, and support Vesperisms on Patreon!

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Music for Vesperisms is provided by Ben + Vesper.